City Hall: Theirs or yours?
"The rule is, jam tomorrow and jam yesterday - but never jam today."
---Lewis Carroll
Asst. City Manager Tom DeSantis apparently isn't too happy with me, telling me after the city council meeting that he was no longer going to provide me with any more information, because he had been courteous to me and I had not returned it in kind. It was amazingly similar to a speech given by City Attorney Gregory Priamos to Community Police Review Commission member, Steve Simpson last week when Simpson asked him what he was smoking when Priamos provided yet another legal opinion of the definition and use of a minority report.
What may happen with Simpson for all his outspokenness may become more clear in upcoming weeks as it's a developing story, but it makes one wonder if some of the city's staff have been to the same seminar.
I had to laugh at this, because I've heard stories from concerned community members that the city manager's office and at least one other city department had been saying negative things about me in meetings held at City Hall in recent months. It's a bit startling to hear from other people that city employees are calling you an "instigator" or "troublemaker" after these words travel the windy path back to you. So if that's the kind of courtesy that the city manager's office is referring to, I could do with a little less of that!
I've been called worse by people better at it so the alleged comments just rolled off, but I certainly did hear about it, beginning in early January. Hopefully, the silent treatment by the city manager's office will extend to those types of comments if indeed they were being made and aren't merely rumor.
The fact is, that the current city manager's office has controlled the operation of the Community Police Review Commission for at least one year now. It's much worse off in terms of just about any parameter you can use to measure its performance or where it's at, than it was before it fell into its current hands. Five commissioners have departed, as did an executive director who was probably one individual at City Hall among others, who was honest, outspoken and brought intelligence, hard work and commitment into an environment where these qualities are deemed as negatives by individuals who clearly do not have the faintest clue what these qualities mean as their handling of the CPRC and the community's feelings about it have shown.
Executive Director Pedro Payne tried to build bridges with both the community and the police department including the Riverside Police Officers' Association. He met with some of the latter's board members and it took some guts on both sides for a meeting like that to take place. He also met with officers newly hired by the city to answer their questions. A program that along with roll call visits was suspended not long before or at his resignation. Despite this, the city manager's office banned his outreach to communities by claiming that he was showing bias to them. Outreach dwindled to almost nothing, a trend that's continued to the current day. As a result, the communities of this city have lost their collective memory of the CPRC and its members and have stopped filing complaints in several neighborhoods.
Does this sound like a CPRC which is properly managed? Was this how Hudson and DeSantis' predecessors managed it?
Actually, no.
Former City Manager George Carvalho and even interim, Tom Evans did not run this commission into the proverbial ground in less than one calendar year. They did not have commissioners dropping off like flies in their watch nor did the commission fail to provide the markers that it does to inform the community of its operations during their tenures.
Of course, Carvalho was considered to be one of the top city managers in the state of California. Riverside had him manage the city for several years and the city council's GASS quartet fought him every step of the way. Hudson is considered to be a very fine well, economic director in the county he left by some people and DeSantis worked for Riverside County as a public information officer before doing a stint in San Bernardino County as well. But he's never had experience addressing a responsibility like this one and so far? He hasn't done anything to inspire confidence in the community that he actually knows what he's doing.
After all, people see a CPRC that is not really functioning at all and they know where the buck stops.
The irony is that Payne probably cared more about the well-being of this city's police officers than the entire city manager's office. He definitely cared more about the city's communities as well. After all, his first response when he discovered he would be going to community meetings, wasn't to go out and get a concealed weapons permit. And if you're that afraid of the communities who may rely on a civilian complaint process the most, then you certainly have little to no respect for that process or those community members. Carvalho moved around much more freely and with assured confidence in the community than either Hudson or DeSantis has done.
But as for caring about the city's employees, it's not clear that the city manager's office truly does if its track record with the labor negotiations which led to three law suits, a strike vote and several packed city council sessions is any indication. The people who construct our streets, install electric transformers, pick up the city's refuse and work in a variety of other departments did not feel particularly valued for their efforts and the city's workforce has never been more demoralized than it is now. As the SEIU's city chapter present Gregory Hagans said recently in an Inland Empire Weekly article, city employees are being disciplined and even terminated by someone they had never even met.
What's also truly unfortunate about this whole set of circumstances involving the CPRC is that the same people who have insured that it's worse off today than it was a year ago, are telling everyone including their employers that it's never been in better shape. There's only so many times you can be told that the emperor has clothes on and still buy into that and it's getting harder and harder for people in the community to do that. Sitting through the public safety meeting in January with DeSantis giving a power point presentation on this "progress", one he would later sell to the CPRC was very interesting, not just in terms of the information provided but the fact that DeSantis and Hudson apparently were allowing the public to attend a meeting about it, given the meetings that they and other department heads had in private during 2006, leading up to what was likely Payne's final meeting in December 2006. Which may or may have not been the same one when now-departed CPRC Chair Les Davidson said later on, they aren't asking us, they are telling us what they are going to do.
Here are some things that the CPRC hasn't done or been able to do on the watch of Hudson and DeSantis.
There's been no annual report in over a year, the committees have barely met and the commissioners have fallen behind on training including Brown Act training for newer commissioners, the city manager's office with the police department in tow have gone to committee meetings and talked about its "progress". Last week's public outreach meeting clearly showed that the commissioners are very leery of doing outreach in the community lest they be seen or it be construed as them soliciting complaints. This was the same accusation launched against Payne last autumn by again, the city manager's office, one that first surfaced at a CPRC committee meeting last autumn.
Most of the outreach it seems, will be aimed at telling community members not what the CPRC can do but what it can't do. This too is a legacy of the current regime in the city manager's office. The CPRC in Riverside used to have an ambition to host the national NACOLE conference by the year, 2008. Now with one year to go, it barely exists at all.
What a difference the city management makes.
At the same time, there's no facility for the CPRC, save one cordoned off cubicle and as has been stated, it's hemorrhaging commissioners who are just fed up. Something that's not gone unnoticed by at least one individual who applied for the executive manager position, who wanted to know what was going on and who was pulling the strings. After all, if a group of people just quits a process, then there's serious problems with that process. After looking back at the CPRC in the past year, that argument is difficult to challenge or disagree with in terms of its merit.
What do you say to someone who asks if the city manager's office micromanages the CPRC's staff? What do you say to someone who asks the same question about the police department? What's interesting is that given that the CPRC and the police department are diametrically at odds with one another, they still share one common denominator and that is that those who lead them don't appear to be entrusted with, well leading them. That's the message that the city manager's office, both Brad Hudson and DeSantis, have been sending to the community this past year.
In late March, the community and the two police unions did a rare thing. They responded together when it was apparently the police department's turn to be micromanaged and the city manager's office blinked.
It's interesting if the city manager's office believes that I'm losing out because it no longer share information about the CPRC's operation or its staffing, information that by the way every resident of this city that pays the sales taxes that go into the pockets each year of both Hudson and DeSantis is entitled to know. This information is not simply allowed to be tucked away and bartered out to people who fall into their favor at any given time. It belongs to everyone, not a select few.
My question? I had asked DeSantis whether or not the Community Police Review Commission executive manager would have an office space to work out of when he was hired. Actually, if as expected, this newest member of the city manager's staff is hired by the end of July and the CPRC will not have its latest permanent space ready by this autumn at the earliest, then the answer is probably no.
Maybe there's some room available on the sun deck.
But as far as DeSantis stomping off after avering not ever providing any information to me again. I can live with that given how much of what he did and has provided had to be taken with a grain of salt. After a while, you run into someone who's asked someone in the city manager's office the same question you have and you compare the different responses, before going out and taking a survey to figure out which response to the same question has been heard by the most people. That's how you find out what's going on at City Hall.
Like for example, does the city manager's office believe the CPRC should have its own independent attorney. The current responses are yes, absolutely, and no, because the planning commission doesn't have one. Ask this question and contribute your response so the results can be tabulated like a survey. Just like city employees get together and compare notes on issues like this, so do community members.
As for whether or not I'll get an answer to a question that's admittedly just as rhetorical as fact-finding about the executive manager's digs, the truth is out there.
I can just submit the same request in writing to his office under the California Public Records Act request. State law does not allow public officials to deny the release of public information and records simply because they are either miffed at you or have decided to take their marbles off of the table and go home.
But it's amazing the arrogance of some city employees when it comes to parsing out information to the public that the public has a right to know about one of its boards and commissions. It makes you wonder if you're dealing with mature adults or small petulant children. What remains to be seen is how long the new executive manager will last in that position if the city mistakedly hires someone who thinks and wants to act independently and not be managed by the manager. A year? Six months? One week, before the boom comes down or more appropriately, the thumb? The track record coming out of the city's manager would receive this grade, needs improvement.
At least during his stint here in River City, here's hoping that the executive manager at least has appropriate office space for the duration. Here here!
Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton was appointed to a second term by a vote taken by the Los Angeles Police Commission, according to the Los Angeles Times.
(excerpt)
Commission President John W. Mack praised Bratton for "enlightened, decisive leadership" during his first term. "He's the right leader at the right time," Mack said.
When the decision was announced, Bratton smiled broadly, his eyes meeting first those of his wife and then Mack as he turned to face the commission.
The chief credited the officers and leaders of the Los Angeles Police Department for his success.
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer has an article out about the criticism being aimed at Seattle Police Department Chief Gil Kerlikowske's interference with internal investigations involving several officers in his employment.
The criticism are coming from the city's police commission which oversees the department's investigations.
It all started when two officers,Greg Neubert and Mike Tietjen, were being investigated for using excessive force and lying on police reports.
They were investigated and the police chief announced the results of the investigation.
(excerpt)
On April 9, the chief announced that the investigation cleared the officers of the most serious allegations -- use of excessive force and planting drugs.
The two were instead disciplined for failing to note in their reports that they had briefly handcuffed and detained a second man, who has not been publicly identified. One officer was given a letter of reprimand, the other a one-day suspension.
Almost immediately, there were complaints that the chief had overstepped his bounds. The Office of Professional Accountability Review Board did its own probe of the incident and released its own findings.
(excerpt)
"The Chief of Police subsequently intervened in the OPA's open investigation, directing extraordinary measures to obtain testimony of a previously uncooperative, unreliable witness to (1) bolster part of the officers' inconsistent testimony and (2) discredit the complainant and another independent witness," the report states.
The Free Lance-Star's article on the situation involving Colonial Beach's decision to hire a firm to evaluate its police department. This is at the direction of Mayor George W. "Pete" Bone,Jr.
(excerpt)
Council's closed session last week followed another May 31 in which the council reportedly discussed a letter signed by police officers critical of Police Chief Courtlandt A. Turner.
The police problems surfaced last month when Turner and Sgt. Ryan Hood returned to work after a federal judge acquitted them on 15 charges stemming from two Taser incidents in 2005.
A federal grand jury last year indicted both officers on civil-rights and obstruction-of-justice counts. In the months before the trial, the town placed Turner and Hood on paid leave and assigned them to other town jobs.
In issuing his not-guilty verdicts for Turner and Hood, U.S. District Judge James Spencer said changes made to a police report were "the most damning behavior in the entire case."
Yesterday, Bone released a copy of a letter to Dana G. Schrad, executive director of the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police.
"Help us build a better police force," Bone asked in the June 14 letter.
The NACOLE newsletter is out! All you need to do is click the most recent link and to have access to Adobe Acrobat Reader.
The prosecution rested today in the trial of former sheriff's deputy Ivory J. Webb Jr., who is accused of attempted voluntary manslaughter in the January 2006 shooting of an Air Force airman.
The first defense witness was called to the stand this morning by Webb's attorney, Michael Schwartz. Attorneys said they believe that testimony could conclude next week.
Webb was videotaped shooting Airman Elio Carrion, who had just returned from a tour of duty in Iraq, after a high-speed chase that ended in a crash in Chino. Carrion was a passenger in the Corvette that fled officers at speeds reaching 100 mph.
Posted by PE.com at 3:23 PM
The defense opened its own case with an expert witness, according to the Press Enterprise.
(excerpt)
I would have shot him," said Inglewood police Sgt. Kenton Ferrin after watching a videotape of Air Force military policeman Elio Carrion moving a hand toward his jacket during the January 2006 late-night confrontation in Chino.
Guns often are hidden in a suspect's jacket, shirt or waistband, Ferrin said.
"I once found a .357 Magnum (revolver) in a lady's bra," he told the jury of the now former San Bernardino County Deputy Sheriff Ivory Webb Jr.
He went on to defend each and every one of Webb's actions and said he would have done the same. If he had, he'd probably be sitting in Webb's chair listening as the defense's expert said the same thing and so on.
---Lewis Carroll
Asst. City Manager Tom DeSantis apparently isn't too happy with me, telling me after the city council meeting that he was no longer going to provide me with any more information, because he had been courteous to me and I had not returned it in kind. It was amazingly similar to a speech given by City Attorney Gregory Priamos to Community Police Review Commission member, Steve Simpson last week when Simpson asked him what he was smoking when Priamos provided yet another legal opinion of the definition and use of a minority report.
What may happen with Simpson for all his outspokenness may become more clear in upcoming weeks as it's a developing story, but it makes one wonder if some of the city's staff have been to the same seminar.
I had to laugh at this, because I've heard stories from concerned community members that the city manager's office and at least one other city department had been saying negative things about me in meetings held at City Hall in recent months. It's a bit startling to hear from other people that city employees are calling you an "instigator" or "troublemaker" after these words travel the windy path back to you. So if that's the kind of courtesy that the city manager's office is referring to, I could do with a little less of that!
I've been called worse by people better at it so the alleged comments just rolled off, but I certainly did hear about it, beginning in early January. Hopefully, the silent treatment by the city manager's office will extend to those types of comments if indeed they were being made and aren't merely rumor.
The fact is, that the current city manager's office has controlled the operation of the Community Police Review Commission for at least one year now. It's much worse off in terms of just about any parameter you can use to measure its performance or where it's at, than it was before it fell into its current hands. Five commissioners have departed, as did an executive director who was probably one individual at City Hall among others, who was honest, outspoken and brought intelligence, hard work and commitment into an environment where these qualities are deemed as negatives by individuals who clearly do not have the faintest clue what these qualities mean as their handling of the CPRC and the community's feelings about it have shown.
Executive Director Pedro Payne tried to build bridges with both the community and the police department including the Riverside Police Officers' Association. He met with some of the latter's board members and it took some guts on both sides for a meeting like that to take place. He also met with officers newly hired by the city to answer their questions. A program that along with roll call visits was suspended not long before or at his resignation. Despite this, the city manager's office banned his outreach to communities by claiming that he was showing bias to them. Outreach dwindled to almost nothing, a trend that's continued to the current day. As a result, the communities of this city have lost their collective memory of the CPRC and its members and have stopped filing complaints in several neighborhoods.
Does this sound like a CPRC which is properly managed? Was this how Hudson and DeSantis' predecessors managed it?
Actually, no.
Former City Manager George Carvalho and even interim, Tom Evans did not run this commission into the proverbial ground in less than one calendar year. They did not have commissioners dropping off like flies in their watch nor did the commission fail to provide the markers that it does to inform the community of its operations during their tenures.
Of course, Carvalho was considered to be one of the top city managers in the state of California. Riverside had him manage the city for several years and the city council's GASS quartet fought him every step of the way. Hudson is considered to be a very fine well, economic director in the county he left by some people and DeSantis worked for Riverside County as a public information officer before doing a stint in San Bernardino County as well. But he's never had experience addressing a responsibility like this one and so far? He hasn't done anything to inspire confidence in the community that he actually knows what he's doing.
After all, people see a CPRC that is not really functioning at all and they know where the buck stops.
The irony is that Payne probably cared more about the well-being of this city's police officers than the entire city manager's office. He definitely cared more about the city's communities as well. After all, his first response when he discovered he would be going to community meetings, wasn't to go out and get a concealed weapons permit. And if you're that afraid of the communities who may rely on a civilian complaint process the most, then you certainly have little to no respect for that process or those community members. Carvalho moved around much more freely and with assured confidence in the community than either Hudson or DeSantis has done.
But as for caring about the city's employees, it's not clear that the city manager's office truly does if its track record with the labor negotiations which led to three law suits, a strike vote and several packed city council sessions is any indication. The people who construct our streets, install electric transformers, pick up the city's refuse and work in a variety of other departments did not feel particularly valued for their efforts and the city's workforce has never been more demoralized than it is now. As the SEIU's city chapter present Gregory Hagans said recently in an Inland Empire Weekly article, city employees are being disciplined and even terminated by someone they had never even met.
What's also truly unfortunate about this whole set of circumstances involving the CPRC is that the same people who have insured that it's worse off today than it was a year ago, are telling everyone including their employers that it's never been in better shape. There's only so many times you can be told that the emperor has clothes on and still buy into that and it's getting harder and harder for people in the community to do that. Sitting through the public safety meeting in January with DeSantis giving a power point presentation on this "progress", one he would later sell to the CPRC was very interesting, not just in terms of the information provided but the fact that DeSantis and Hudson apparently were allowing the public to attend a meeting about it, given the meetings that they and other department heads had in private during 2006, leading up to what was likely Payne's final meeting in December 2006. Which may or may have not been the same one when now-departed CPRC Chair Les Davidson said later on, they aren't asking us, they are telling us what they are going to do.
Here are some things that the CPRC hasn't done or been able to do on the watch of Hudson and DeSantis.
There's been no annual report in over a year, the committees have barely met and the commissioners have fallen behind on training including Brown Act training for newer commissioners, the city manager's office with the police department in tow have gone to committee meetings and talked about its "progress". Last week's public outreach meeting clearly showed that the commissioners are very leery of doing outreach in the community lest they be seen or it be construed as them soliciting complaints. This was the same accusation launched against Payne last autumn by again, the city manager's office, one that first surfaced at a CPRC committee meeting last autumn.
Most of the outreach it seems, will be aimed at telling community members not what the CPRC can do but what it can't do. This too is a legacy of the current regime in the city manager's office. The CPRC in Riverside used to have an ambition to host the national NACOLE conference by the year, 2008. Now with one year to go, it barely exists at all.
What a difference the city management makes.
At the same time, there's no facility for the CPRC, save one cordoned off cubicle and as has been stated, it's hemorrhaging commissioners who are just fed up. Something that's not gone unnoticed by at least one individual who applied for the executive manager position, who wanted to know what was going on and who was pulling the strings. After all, if a group of people just quits a process, then there's serious problems with that process. After looking back at the CPRC in the past year, that argument is difficult to challenge or disagree with in terms of its merit.
What do you say to someone who asks if the city manager's office micromanages the CPRC's staff? What do you say to someone who asks the same question about the police department? What's interesting is that given that the CPRC and the police department are diametrically at odds with one another, they still share one common denominator and that is that those who lead them don't appear to be entrusted with, well leading them. That's the message that the city manager's office, both Brad Hudson and DeSantis, have been sending to the community this past year.
In late March, the community and the two police unions did a rare thing. They responded together when it was apparently the police department's turn to be micromanaged and the city manager's office blinked.
It's interesting if the city manager's office believes that I'm losing out because it no longer share information about the CPRC's operation or its staffing, information that by the way every resident of this city that pays the sales taxes that go into the pockets each year of both Hudson and DeSantis is entitled to know. This information is not simply allowed to be tucked away and bartered out to people who fall into their favor at any given time. It belongs to everyone, not a select few.
My question? I had asked DeSantis whether or not the Community Police Review Commission executive manager would have an office space to work out of when he was hired. Actually, if as expected, this newest member of the city manager's staff is hired by the end of July and the CPRC will not have its latest permanent space ready by this autumn at the earliest, then the answer is probably no.
Maybe there's some room available on the sun deck.
But as far as DeSantis stomping off after avering not ever providing any information to me again. I can live with that given how much of what he did and has provided had to be taken with a grain of salt. After a while, you run into someone who's asked someone in the city manager's office the same question you have and you compare the different responses, before going out and taking a survey to figure out which response to the same question has been heard by the most people. That's how you find out what's going on at City Hall.
Like for example, does the city manager's office believe the CPRC should have its own independent attorney. The current responses are yes, absolutely, and no, because the planning commission doesn't have one. Ask this question and contribute your response so the results can be tabulated like a survey. Just like city employees get together and compare notes on issues like this, so do community members.
As for whether or not I'll get an answer to a question that's admittedly just as rhetorical as fact-finding about the executive manager's digs, the truth is out there.
I can just submit the same request in writing to his office under the California Public Records Act request. State law does not allow public officials to deny the release of public information and records simply because they are either miffed at you or have decided to take their marbles off of the table and go home.
But it's amazing the arrogance of some city employees when it comes to parsing out information to the public that the public has a right to know about one of its boards and commissions. It makes you wonder if you're dealing with mature adults or small petulant children. What remains to be seen is how long the new executive manager will last in that position if the city mistakedly hires someone who thinks and wants to act independently and not be managed by the manager. A year? Six months? One week, before the boom comes down or more appropriately, the thumb? The track record coming out of the city's manager would receive this grade, needs improvement.
At least during his stint here in River City, here's hoping that the executive manager at least has appropriate office space for the duration. Here here!
Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton was appointed to a second term by a vote taken by the Los Angeles Police Commission, according to the Los Angeles Times.
(excerpt)
Commission President John W. Mack praised Bratton for "enlightened, decisive leadership" during his first term. "He's the right leader at the right time," Mack said.
When the decision was announced, Bratton smiled broadly, his eyes meeting first those of his wife and then Mack as he turned to face the commission.
The chief credited the officers and leaders of the Los Angeles Police Department for his success.
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer has an article out about the criticism being aimed at Seattle Police Department Chief Gil Kerlikowske's interference with internal investigations involving several officers in his employment.
The criticism are coming from the city's police commission which oversees the department's investigations.
It all started when two officers,Greg Neubert and Mike Tietjen, were being investigated for using excessive force and lying on police reports.
They were investigated and the police chief announced the results of the investigation.
(excerpt)
On April 9, the chief announced that the investigation cleared the officers of the most serious allegations -- use of excessive force and planting drugs.
The two were instead disciplined for failing to note in their reports that they had briefly handcuffed and detained a second man, who has not been publicly identified. One officer was given a letter of reprimand, the other a one-day suspension.
Almost immediately, there were complaints that the chief had overstepped his bounds. The Office of Professional Accountability Review Board did its own probe of the incident and released its own findings.
(excerpt)
"The Chief of Police subsequently intervened in the OPA's open investigation, directing extraordinary measures to obtain testimony of a previously uncooperative, unreliable witness to (1) bolster part of the officers' inconsistent testimony and (2) discredit the complainant and another independent witness," the report states.
The Free Lance-Star's article on the situation involving Colonial Beach's decision to hire a firm to evaluate its police department. This is at the direction of Mayor George W. "Pete" Bone,Jr.
(excerpt)
Council's closed session last week followed another May 31 in which the council reportedly discussed a letter signed by police officers critical of Police Chief Courtlandt A. Turner.
The police problems surfaced last month when Turner and Sgt. Ryan Hood returned to work after a federal judge acquitted them on 15 charges stemming from two Taser incidents in 2005.
A federal grand jury last year indicted both officers on civil-rights and obstruction-of-justice counts. In the months before the trial, the town placed Turner and Hood on paid leave and assigned them to other town jobs.
In issuing his not-guilty verdicts for Turner and Hood, U.S. District Judge James Spencer said changes made to a police report were "the most damning behavior in the entire case."
Yesterday, Bone released a copy of a letter to Dana G. Schrad, executive director of the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police.
"Help us build a better police force," Bone asked in the June 14 letter.
The NACOLE newsletter is out! All you need to do is click the most recent link and to have access to Adobe Acrobat Reader.
The prosecution rested today in the trial of former sheriff's deputy Ivory J. Webb Jr., who is accused of attempted voluntary manslaughter in the January 2006 shooting of an Air Force airman.
The first defense witness was called to the stand this morning by Webb's attorney, Michael Schwartz. Attorneys said they believe that testimony could conclude next week.
Webb was videotaped shooting Airman Elio Carrion, who had just returned from a tour of duty in Iraq, after a high-speed chase that ended in a crash in Chino. Carrion was a passenger in the Corvette that fled officers at speeds reaching 100 mph.
Posted by PE.com at 3:23 PM
The defense opened its own case with an expert witness, according to the Press Enterprise.
(excerpt)
I would have shot him," said Inglewood police Sgt. Kenton Ferrin after watching a videotape of Air Force military policeman Elio Carrion moving a hand toward his jacket during the January 2006 late-night confrontation in Chino.
Guns often are hidden in a suspect's jacket, shirt or waistband, Ferrin said.
"I once found a .357 Magnum (revolver) in a lady's bra," he told the jury of the now former San Bernardino County Deputy Sheriff Ivory Webb Jr.
He went on to defend each and every one of Webb's actions and said he would have done the same. If he had, he'd probably be sitting in Webb's chair listening as the defense's expert said the same thing and so on.
posted by Five Before Midnight | 1:23 PM
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