Five before Midnight

This site is dedicated to the continuous oversight of the Riverside(CA)Police Department, which was formerly overseen by the state attorney general. This blog will hopefully play that role being free of City Hall's micromanagement.
"The horror of that moment," the King went on, "I shall never, never forget." "You will though," the Queen said, "if you don't make a memorandum of it." --Lewis Carroll

Contact: fivebeforemidnight@yahoo.com

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Location: RiverCity, Inland Empire

Saturday, November 19, 2005

Hiding in Plain Sight: The women in the RPD

At a recent city council meeting, over 40 representatives from both the RPD's management and the RPOA's Board of Directors filled the city council chambers, to listen to and in some cases speak on several issues on the meeting agenda.

What was most notable about this gathering, was the absolute absense of female officers sitting in the audience. Where were they? They are not holding positions of leadership either in the department's management or in the union that is set up to represent them. That is why none were present in the audience.

Statistically, about 9% of all officers in the RPD are female. This number has remained fairly stagnant since 2000. While the numbers of female officers slowly climb, they lag behind the hiring of male officers, which is why the percentage of women in the department remains so low. There are three female sergeants, five female detectives and two female lieutenants, according to the 2004 EEO report issued by the Human Resources Department.

Nation-wide, about 17% of all law enforcement personnel are women. Why are the numbers in the RPD, the state's newest "model" agency so low? And why when the RPD does recruit women into its ranks, is their retention relatively poor?

One person I knew reported the following assertion by an officer she had been talking to, about female officers.

"I don't think women should be in law enforcement. I don't like them and they could never be as good as men"-- RPD cop(2002)


Why indeed.



In 1998, the city of Riverside paid out a handsome settlement well into the six-figures on a sexual discrimination, harassment and retaliation law suit filed by former Sgt. Christine Keers. Keers filed the complaint alleging that she faced a hostile work environment, a rather thick glass ceiling and retaliation under two police chiefs when she complained about unfair treatment.

Keers alleged that the mistreatment started when she joined the agency as a probational officer on May 15, 1981. She stated in her law suit she was subjected to many sexist and sexual comments on the job including the following:

"Women cops are like snails, when they get up, you can see the wet marks"

"Come and scoot across my face."

On one occasion, Keers alleged that former Det. Ron Adams saw her yawning and said:

"Her mouth is open. She must want to get promoted."

In 1993, an investigation was launched by the department when a unit secretary accidently heard through an open phone line sexist comments made by male detectives, including one that referred to a female officer as a "brood mare". Another was that "women did not know their place." Instead of disciplining the officers involved, the administration told Keers not to talk to the secretary because it would just upset her.

If two female officers were assigned to the same squad car, it was called the "lesbian" car.

Many of these comments were allegedly said in roll call sessions, the same roll call room which would later be placed by State Attorney General Bill Lockyer under video surveillance as part of the stipulated agreement. One would think this agency would have had a professional environment of professionals, but Keers in her suit against the city alleged otherwise.

When Keers tried to get promoted to sergeant, the situation really heated up, according to her law suit. Former Chief Linford "Sonny" Richardson promoted men who were less qualified, less experienced and who had disciplinary histoires, according to Keers' complaint. When asked why he promoted one male individual, Richardson said:

"I owed it to him for his faithfulness."

Richardson was eventually cycled out of the department's revolving door and Ken Fortier replaced him. As history would soon show, his stay at the helm of the top administrative position in the department would be relatively short. Still, Keers had to wait for her promotion, despite Fortier's assurances that she would be promoted if she dropped her grievance.

But she would not, and eventually was promoted to sergeant although her stint in that position was even briefer than Fortier's stint with the department. Soon after, Internal Affairs began investigating her and a criminal case was filed against her for knowingly buying stolen goods at a store.

The Riverside County District Attorney's office took the case but presented three conditions to the Police Department before it would be allowed to make an arrest. Those being that the department could not utilize informants for information who were working off cases, that officers who Keers had complained against not be involved and that an arrest not be done until the D.A.'s office authorized it. According to Keers' law suit, the department violated all three conditions.

Keers was arrested on Aug. 17, 1994 by three of the officers named in her past and present grievances: Sgt. Al Brown, Det. Ron Adams and former Capt. Michael Smith. Her case went to trial and she was acquitted after an hour of deliberation. A defense fund was initiated by officers within the department to raise money for court costs, until Fortier tried to thwart that fund raising effort.

The timing of the arrest and prosecution in relation to Keers' grievance filings, not to mention the parties involved in both processes are disturbing, but hardly novel in terms of how the department treats its "whistle blowers". Former Officer Rene Rodriguez was mirandized during his interview with Internal Affairs in relation to his discrimination and harassment complaint against the department after the division decided to reopen a closed out complaint against him involving an off-duty arrest.


Keers reported other retaliation in her law suit, which worsened as she navigated through the promotional process.

Graffiti in the men's bathroom at one facilty referred to Keers as a "bitch" and a "whore". Threatening and hang up phone call messages were left on her machine including one at the workplace which the caller said, "bitch, you are going to die." Fliers of sexual cartoons appeared on her desk and elsewhere in the department.

The city spent the relatively miniscule amount of $19,000 in court costs before it settled the case for considerably higher than that and eventually gave Keers a paid retirement at tax payer expense.

Today, the department like others has in place a policy governing sexual discrimination and harassment in the workplace, but former police chief Penny Harrington testified during the Roger Sutton law suit trial that although she found that policy adequate, she did not believe the enforcement and implementation of it was satisfactory.

The number of female officers in the department took a serious dip after 1999, which it only recently has begun to recover from, but the number of women promoted to higher positions especially those in management continues to lag. Women also traditionally have not served on their own union's board of directors, a glass ceiling of a different kind not likely to break soon. It is not clear whether there are any female officers serving as grievance representatives in the labor union, which means that if any sexual discrimination or harassment is taking place inside the department, it is much less likely to be reported to either the labor union or management.

During the state attorney general's investigation, evidence emerged that sexist and sexual jokes and comments were being told alongside their racist counterparts during roll call sessions. Hence, the decision to put video cameras in the roll call room, during its sessions to as, Bill Lockyer said, break the racist and sexist culture of the police department.

Recruitment of women continues to be difficult. At a departmental recruiting forum held in May 2004, there were few female officers present and only one, Det. Rita Cobb, participated in a demonstration involving police skills and tactics. Representatives from male-dominated divisions including Aviation, canine, motorcycle, bicycle, narcotics and SWAT/METRO were on display in front of the public but no female officers were present. During the SWAT/METRO question and answer session, one potential female officer candidate asked Sgt. Kendall Banks if there were any women on the SWAT Team. He answered, no because none of the women were strong enough.

The recruitment tables inside the boathouse had applications for both sworn positions and for nonsworn positions in the dispatch unit. The "officer" table was manned by a man. The "dispatcher" table was manned by a woman, which sent a message to women who attended the forum that they were hireable as dispatchers, rather than officers.

The Use of Force training Team has one female officer who recently was present at a training session given by the CPRC. However, except for a brief display of her considerable baton welding skills, she functioned mainly as the "suspect" to be searched, handcuffed and apprehended by the other male officers on the team who were allowed to display their defense skills. As a fully trained officer in the department, she would be required to be just as skilled in defense tactics as her male counterparts yet her skills were not put on display as theirs were during the demonstrations.

The RPD continues to do most of its local officer recruitment at ball parks, air shows and military installations, locations where they are likely to find far more men than women. Before the latest Iraqi war dried up the prospective pool, nearly 2/3 of its recruitment time and energy was spent at local military institutions including Camp Pendleton Marine Station.

Retention of women in the department and others like it continue to be a problem, particularly during the probational period when women are dropped for poor evaluations for being "too slow", lacking in "gusto" and other similar reasons. Experts in women and policing state that such terms are code words to promote the idea that female officers are simply inferior to their male counterparts. EEO reports for the past several years show a net gain of two female officers over a four year period.

Promotions for female officers remain few and far between. Women comprise less than 6% of all sergeants and less than 5% of all lieutenants. There are no female captains and there has only been one female deputy chief in the department's history. That situation is unlikely to change in the next five to ten years.

Which is a shame, because many studies done comparing female officers to male officers have favored the women, including those done on the issue of excessive force. In statistics provided for many larger law enforcement agencies, women comprise about 5% of complaints involving excessive force, 5% of citizen complaints and 2% of sustained complaints. Women engage in as many arrests as their male counterparts and do not hesitate to use force when necessary, but their rates of excessive force are far exceeded by male officers.

Financially, women are more cost-effective when it comes to civil litigation paid out by cities and counties in relation to excessive force, sexual assaults and domestic violence. Although nationally, women are outnumbered by about 6.5 to 1, in terms of law suits paid out, men outnumber women, anywhere from 20 to 40 to 1.

So the logical thing to do would be to hire more female officers, particularly as the department moves away from parimilitary style policing and continues to embrace Community Oriented Problem Solving policing. Yet, the numbers of female officers in the RPD will continue to lag behind those of men for a long time.

Legal Cases:

The People of the State of California vs Christine Keers(criminal)

Christine Keers vs the City of Riverside(Civil)

Links:

National Center of Women and Policing

Publications:

Excessive Force: A Tale of Two Genders

Recruiting and Retaining women: 2003 update (Adobe Acrobat Reader required)

Effect of Content Decrees on Hiring Women: During and After (Adobe Acrobat Reader required)

Police Officers and Domestic Violence: a study

58 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is an easy question to answer?

There are a few female officers within the department that can hold their own and any of us "guys" have no problem working with them.

The reason that there are so few females on the force is that per Chief Leach's statement, we hire "The best of the best."

He did not say, "The best Female applicant we could get."

He did not say, "The best Black applicant we could get."

He did not say, "The best Hispanic applicant we could get."

He did not say, "The best White applicant we could get."

Do you understand what I am saying? He hires the "best of the best" Should we start kidnapping females and putting them in a uniform just to increase the ratio within the department...just checking... we can't force people to apply.

It's a funny thing.....I can't recall them coming up to me and saying, "You know sir, we could really use a few good white males like yourself around the department." Then they went into.."so sir, let me just make sure you qualify..I'm going to ask you a few preliminary questions:

1. are you white?
2. are you a male?
3. do you like black people?
4. if a black person and a white person within the department were disciplined for the same incident we should punish the black person more..right?
5. do you like female officers?

yep...sounds exactly like it happens around RPD...only in your twisted mind Mary...

Unfortunately because of people like you crying about the number of female officers on the street the department has made the situation worse by tenderly helping certain females through training by placing them with FTO's that are not proactive. Instead of having these females working the Eastside arresting parolees or chasing down "gangsters" in the Arlanza area they are gingerly driving around taking their safe little report calls. The way a number of our female officers get tenderly helped through training just makes the force dangerous for them and dangerous for their beat partners when they get on their own. I mean how many times do you have to be re-phased through training before you pass the FTO program. I am sure it was getting tough finding weak FTO's to pass these females.

And a word to those females on the department reading this right now...If you are one of the weak ones... you already know it...and the tough ones, the ones that can handle their beat...can go out there and take people to jail..the ones that aren't going to let some parolee "chip" at them without smacking that punk into the ground know who you are too...and we respect you for that...nuf said

Monday, November 21, 2005 6:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Male Officer: Lets a fleeing suspect point a gun at him THREE TIMES without acting.
Female Officer: Stands in fear while a male officer fights for his life with a shithead over a loaded gun.
Does not matter what gender if they don't act, they don't belong on the streets. I want to go home at night, and don't want to be near a coward like that. There are citizens out there in this wounderful city that respect us. I had a older woman approach me the other day while on a call. She spoke of how much she admired cops and the job we do, even if there are people like you who bash us. She cried several times telling me how she felt. That to me says that what we do is right. You have no idea what it is like to be in a fight for your life (And never will) and then go home and try to act like it never happened. We will carry the physical and emotional scars from those fights to our graves. And you sit in your house mondy morning quaterbacking our job, Which you never have done, and go to bed and dream of peaceful things. We dream of being shot or worse killed. Its part of the job and we do it because its right and we love it. We do it for those times where a stranger buys our lunch/dinner or just says thank you. When was the last time you told a cop thank you. Prob never because we can smell the funk when you get near.......I pray for you!!!!!!!

Monday, November 21, 2005 8:00:00 PM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Closeted Cops:

I pray for you too. Especially the first guy because the changing dynamic of the department will be more difficult for him.

Thank you for your comments. Thank you both for being honest rather than hiding behind sexist jokes like some of your colleagues.

Closeted Officer #1: Your post is on women officers is very informative and very passionate. I'll address that posting further when I've given it some more thought as you have raised multiple issues in your comments.

Now on to Closeted Officer #2's comment. I'm not sure what it has to do with the issue of female officers, which tells me that the issue of female officers is obviously not a topic you feel as strongly about as your colleague who preceded you with his comments on the matter.

One thing that puzzles me about your comment, if you are so gratified by positive comments from community members and that is what you live for, then why be upset by some criticism? Why bother to come here and vent about it, when you have so many people who support you, no questions asked? Or is it an all or nothing deal with people like you? Everyone's loyal without qustion, or no one is.

Why not be grateful for those who thank you and embrace the feelings that you experience when you are with them as the gifts that they are? You say that you value what that woman said to you, but yet her emotional response which meant a great deal to her obviously to express it to you, is not enough to satisfy you for very long, when a voice of thanks by one person is an awful lot more than many people in many occupations ever hear.

Imagine being a sanitation worker, also doing a tough and dangerous job for lower pay and benefits. How many of them are thanked for their efforts? How many of them are criticized? More than are thanked, that is for sure. How many of them get invited into people's homes for dinner? Probably none. And the city thanks them for their efforts by contracting a good proportion of their jobs to the private sector.

At this point, you are probably going, what, MY job is being compared to that of a SANITATION WORKER? I suppose that is understandable given the relative difference in social status between the two occupations, but then you have to ask yourself. If you could do it again, would you rather be a police officer, or a sanitation worker? I think I know what the answer to that question would be. You do too.

You could be a crab fisherman, a cab driver, a construction worker, a farmer, a miner, jobs that are dangerous, arduous work filled with courageous people who receive hardly any thanks or dinners in people's homes for what they do. All contribute to society, in different ways. They put food on our tables, they mine the ore that makes our cars and ships. They build our houses and office buildings and even police stations. They take us to and from places. How many of these folks have you ever thanked? Did you even thank the convenience store cashier who gave you a free beverage on your shift? Or the waitress who brought food to your table at meal time? Or were these things you felt entitled to you because of who you were?

Would you trade your job for theirs? Some of them might if given the chance, think it was a more than fair trade. Some of them like what they do like yourself and would not trade.

And the difference between them and you, is that they do not demand 100% loyalty or else in return. They do their jobs daily with out similar strings attached, like true, if unsung, heroes do. They do not deride and harass those who dare to ask questions about their conduct and believe that's heroic or for some greater good. They certainly do not come on internet sites and act like young school children, spitting on their own agency as they do so.

You made your choice to be a police officer besides its obvious downsides. You were volunteer enlistees, not drafted to be police officers. No one lied to you about what your job would entail, when you were in the academy. If you learned that the reality of your profession was different outside the controlled environment of your training academy, then that's a sign that you belong to the human race.

I had to learn the hard lesson that police officers didn't always respond timely or even at all to calls for assistance. How about having a man break into your home and trying to keep him from attacking you, and having the police come out the next day? Um, he had fled and was probably long gone by then.

After a while, I just could contact the UCR PD(what you might deride as a "security guard company") to report a crime even when the crime wasn't in their area. And former Chief Rosenfield was very helpful on one occasion when an RPD officer lost control of herself at a public event. He saw what she was doing and intervened by calling former Chief(if not for long)Carroll to deal with it, which he did.

I learned that the "containment" policy by the department(of which the above was a part of) might have been good for some neighborhoods of the city like the Wood Streets and Canyoncrest, but not others like mine.

I learned that if you dare criticize their conduct or point a finger at misconduct, you get harassed for it. That hardly sounds like valiant or heroic behavior to me, yet officers defend it, by citing how dangerous their jobs are and how brave they are as if that is a worthwhile excuse. When the truly brave police officers do not engage in that behavior at all. They do have to stand in embarassment at their colleagues who wear the same uniform and do make that choice while telling themselves it's on everyone's behalf.

Any officer can be heroic too, by the choices you make, the actions you make that help, and do not hurt others. By whether you condemn misconduct within your ranks, or whether you condone or endorse it through silence. Whether you engage in telling racist, sexist jokes or whether you don't. It's a bit too much for the public to expect officers to actually report that kind of conduct at this juncture in time, unfortunately.

Hmm...I talk to officers a lot actually and I thank them. Just because I haven't done like to you and some others, doesn't mean I treat others the same. If they are polite to me, I am polite to them. If they are helpful and friendly to me, then I am to them. Many of them are. What's interesting is the looks on their faces when they realize I'm not the demon I've been made out to be by some of you. I've thanked them, and some of them have and continue to thank me. They just keep that to themselves for their own personal safety, not from the public, but from those within their own ranks. It's really unfortunate that they have to feel that way but there you have it.

OTOH, I tend to steer clear of police officers who have been antagonistic towards me or harassed me, some for years. If that is you, then it's really not appropriate on your part to make such assumptions that I treat everyone in your agency that way.

As for the dinner dates, that's really nice that you appreciate when members of the public do that for you. You should be grateful that they honored you that way. However, when I read comments like some of the ones I've read here, I doubt seriously that officers like yourself would consider it ahem, an honor or express similar gratitude if invited for dinner in many of the houses in my neighborhood. That should not be too surprising because it's well known that many officers do not even want to even live in this city because there are too many Black and Hispanic people here now. That's pretty sad and shows how fundamentally little has changed in the past five years.

One reason why I think an "invite a cop to dinner program" run by community organizations or even HRC is a good idea. I think we should start one in Arlanza?

It's also surprising what you will learn when you talk to officers who aren't part of the diminishing crowd of pre-consent decree officers. I didn't know how many of them distance themselves from their own union leadership, or how cognizant many were about the racism within their ranks. And when I had a few officer actually thank me for filing a complaint against one of them for harassment, I nearly fainted.

Law enforcement officers do not have the exclusive rights to being subjected to violence and nightmares. After all, if that were true, then why would they be needed in the first place?

As for violent crime, been there, experienced that! And bad dreams, we've all had them. I had them for years after being attacked. Warm milk or chamoelle tea before you go to bed is helpful if not a cure all. I would seek therapy if it continues however, as it might be PTSD. Look on the bright side. At least you do not have to pay for it.

have a nice day,

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 1:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

California Legal Definition:

"Defamation is written or spoken injury to a person or organization's reputation. Libel is the written act of defamation, vs. slander, the oral act of defamation."


- Mary, you're probably going to want to do a little research yourself. It is a crime to call a Police Officer who engages in a legally justified shooting a "murderer."

Equal Protection.

Defamation of Character.

Your arrogance and ignorance has gone too far and it will not be tolerated this time.


The CPRC and its favorite little cheerleader (that's you) have crossed a line and justice will be served in the courtroom.

Toodles,
Serpico


P.S. To be continued....

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:33:00 PM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Not-Really-"Serpico"

Thank you for your brief and concise comments.

However, I think a bit of a clarification of legal definitions is in order here.

It is not a crime. It's called a civil tort. Certainly, your attorney should know the difference. If not, then report him to the state bar for misconduct if he's claiming that a civil tort is a crime. It is not.

Another threat from the RPOA's leadership, hardly surprising, considering the behavior of its elected leaders in the past three years towards myself and anyone who criticizes its operation. I invite you to peruse the following Web sites. You will find them very informative.

California anti-SLAPP Project

What is a SLAPP suit?

Wow, I guess considering the prospective defendants I've heard from so far who have received similar threats, I'm in good company.

Oh, and please by all means, don't throw me in the briar patch.

Toodles Mr. "Serpico" and have a nice day,


P.S. If you sue me, please do so under your real name and not Serpico's. I wouldn't think he would appreciate you masquerading as him. Impersonating a real person IS a crime.

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 3:31:00 PM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Hmm...I thought I'd "gone too far" and "crossed the line" back in 2003 because one of your officers harassed me from his squad car on a city street.

Was that you, "Serpico"?

At least a law suit would be more mature and civilized conduct on your part.

ciao,

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 5:54:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

>>>"...I can't recall them coming up to me and saying, "You know sir, we could really use a few good white males like yourself around the department."

Well gee, what a bloody surprise that is.

Please tell me that these pathetically insecure specimens aren't really given guns and turned loose on a mostly defenseless public. I'm surprised they even use guns, surely they could just batter the bad guys into submission with their great big white thangs.

And why that sarcastic list of questions asked prospective employees when apparently the only one they really ask is 'Do you believe that only a white male can be a good cop?'.

What big, brave, men they are making their threats behind cartoon names.I don't know how you continue to deal with this chickenshit bunch of cowards. You must love Riverside a lot.

Friday, November 25, 2005 4:20:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cowards? Wow you must be the nerd that got beat up in school. You prob would wet yourself in a violent situation.
There are no threats being made, Read what 422PC says in the penal code......your just as bad as crazy Mary.

Friday, November 25, 2005 10:57:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Definityaly not anything like Serpico wrote:
Mary, you're probably going to want to do a little research yourself. It is a crime to call a Police Officer who engages in a legally justified shooting a "murderer."

----------------------------------

Could it be? Could somebody this abysmally ignorant of the law really get - and keep a job in California Law enforcement?

Whether he's really the arrogant racist cop he poses as here, or just a pathetic wannabe, this "Serpico" clown is doing the RPD no favors.

Friday, November 25, 2005 11:12:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Well, Sandalou, I think that this is probably not the cream of the crop that spend time here, though there are a couple of officers who posted who seem to not be in that same group and I have appreciated their thoughtful posts.

But since it was likely the RPOA's leadership that brought people here, you aren't very likely to see the best here. It's a shame because they are out there, if not here. But maybe that's why so many officers are discontented with their union leadership right how and want change. That's why they view them as extremist and not in line with their own views of what they want in this department.

It was a bit odd not to see officers on this site as much as to see them fighting with each other over who should win the RPOA presidency and making personal attacks at each other!

I guess
when they were recruiting backup for these blog visits, they did not vet the crew they picked very well.

Perhaps the RPOA leadership should expend its energy determining how the city is going to pay for the second year expenses for those 25 officers it promised to hire. Word is, that check's going to bounce sky-high for lack of promised funds. Failure to follow through on a promise like that should be a crime. But it looks like the union leaders are too busy attacking windmills to address a serious issue like this one.

Friday, November 25, 2005 2:01:00 PM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Closeted Cop:

Hmm...Sometimes I think some officers are the nerds who got beat up in high school. It's like they are angry at the world and want to get even with it. About 2/3 of all police officers hired come from broken homes, or homes with alcoholism in parents.

But many are confident, well-adjusted people who want to work in a service-oriented profession and help people. I don't think you'll find many of those posting here. They have no inherant need to do so to assure themselves or make themselves feel better. They are confident in themselves to know why they are police officers and do not need outside validation to feel that way.

And wetting yourself as you call it, is no evidence by itself of being a coward. Some of you must know that by now if you have been in "violent" situations that loss of bladder control can be a response to adrenaline being pumped in the blood stream as the body prepares for a fight or flight response.

It's a natural biological reaction, that is all, and thus not a very accurate variable to use to determine any machismo quotient.

Crazy...I consider it all relative. Crazy, in comparison to a cop who shows up, calls himself "Serpico" who then threatens to sue me? Or telling someone they should shave their armpits and burn a bra at a city council meeting? LOL....

In the face of that type of behavior, as a so-called "crazy" person, I am duly humbled, for failure to measure up to the competition. :-o

have a nice day,

Friday, November 25, 2005 2:15:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

Nah, never got beat up in high school, nor am I an emotionally stunted little man who has nothing to feel good about but the accident of my skin color. The truly sad part is people like those of you who spend so much time here beating your chests and showing just what a pathetic bunch you are didn't become cops out of any desire to 'Serve and Protect', you became cops so you could get even with everyone who ever made you feel small. Sadly, due to your own feelings of inadequacy this means everyone who isn't like you, otherwise known as just about everyone.

Hopefully, rapid advancements in psychological testing will soon weed out defective specimens like yourselves before you ever get through the door.

Friday, November 25, 2005 10:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mary;

I have not had the pleasure of meeting you, but I suspect that I will gain your acquaintance in the future.

I have read your post pertaining to women in law enforcement and while you make a few valid points, you are wildly inaccurate in the vast majority of your statements/beliefs. You are especially confused pertaining to “extravagant” sums paid out by municipalities as the result of excessive force settlements/judgments vs. percentages of total municipal liabilities paid out on a per annum basis. Similarly, you conveniently exclude all statistics associated with “workers compensation/injured on duty” costs, comparing female officers and male officers in ACTUAL PATROL functions. I will not even touch upon actual sick time used and maternity leave used with regard to percentages over a standard ten year period of service. That’s right Mary, the number of women who obtain service retirements in actual patrol work over a standard twenty year career period is so statistically insignificant that it cannot even be reliably deduced from the strata available.

But it is easy to understand why you arrive at your conclusions. Ignorance. And I use that particular word with no maliciousness whatsoever. You are very limited in your life experience… not entirely your fault, as it appears that life has dealt you quite a challenging hand. To your credit, it appears that you have embraced your difficult socio-economic station in life. However, what puzzles me, and others like me, is your willingness to expend your energies in a “Don Quixote like” odyssey against a police department, instead of working to improve your own personal plight in life. Bizarre.

I hate to be the one to break it to you Mary, but the reality is that no one cares.

And in this society, like it or not, “no one” means, the people who count. The people who have good jobs, live in nice houses, and who’s kids actually attend school. The solid middle class in America (and Riverside) cares more about whether their seven year old daughter’s soccer game this Saturday is going to be rained out, than if a police officer’s shooting on the Eastside was within department policy or was not within department policy.

I believe that this is not an indictment of the values of Middle Americans (and Riversiders) but rather a testament to the progress that we have made as a society as a whole. They (the Middle Class) no longer need to worry about the actions or inactions of their police department, or the fire department or the water department, as our forefathers did as recently as one hundred years ago. Middle Americans have faith in these public institutions to “take care of them” so that they can concentrate on the really important things in life, like making sure that the kids have enough snacks and soda to celebrate the victory at the ballfield on Saturday.

So feel free to continue your pointless attack on the Riverside Police Department. The biggest hoot, Mary, is that you don’t even know who the enemy is. I am not a public policy analyst or a statistician, but in studying the data provided by the City of Riverside, it appears that over 4/5ths of the patrol division (the officers who actually answer 911 calls,-not including traffic, motorcycle officers, air support, community policing, school resource, UNET) was hired AFTER the Miller shooting/State Attorney General Consent Decree! Furthermore, unless I have been the victim of misinformation, the Officer involved in the Summer Lane Shooting was also hired AFTER the consent decree!

So what is your point, Mary??? Are you angry at the RPD Command Staff, the senior RPD Officers (hired prior to 2001), or the newer RPD Officers (hired after 2001) ? It appears that the newer RPD officers are the officers whom have been involved in almost every single officer involved shooting within the last three years. So have these “new” Officers already been “corrupted”, or were they “corrupted” before they got to RPD? And what of the State Attorney General and his “Grand RPD Consent Decree Experiment?” A complete and total waste of time, resources and MONEY?

Good luck Mary. I propose a toast to Titanium Jousting Poles. Your gonna need ‘em.

Sincerely,
Innocent Bystander.

Saturday, November 26, 2005 1:15:00 AM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

Dear Innocent,

What planet are you from?

Or do you assume that the middle class no longer cares because you and yours only prey upon the poor? Wonder how long it will be before one of you fools shoots a kid of color who isn't poor. Your refusal to face the evil of your own arrogant attitudes guarantees it will happen sooner or later.

The only windmills around here are the ones in your heads. I'll just bet you wish she'd shut up and go away. She's not attacking anything, just shining a big fat spotlight on the slimy things you all want kept in the dark.

As far as that pathetic old whine about women taking time off to have babies, I guess until you rocket scientists figure out how to do it yourselves women will have to continue doing the hard parts. It's time women quit being penalized for being able to do things men can't.

Saturday, November 26, 2005 3:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mary, see former female lieutenant (now female Sgt) who, as a probationary watch commander ordered officers to fire over 30 less-lethal projectiles at a African American man who's only crime was trespassing (standing on the roof of house). The subject had a history of violence and mental illness. She also ordered the man to be hosed down by fire fighter hoses. As a result the man suffered internal injuries and a lengthy stay in the hospital. Then, on the eve of an internal investigation, this female Lt called some of the officers into her office and tried to "get their stories straight." Fortunately, these officers did not follow her into the web of lies she was trying to create to save her ass, and she was subsequently demoted (should have been fired). Have you heard about this incident Mary? Probably not cause the leaders of this Dept (not officers but leaders) tried to cover it up by ordering officers to change their reports and enhance the charges to help justify the use of force. Now, this is an example of a female officer who was promoted because of her gender and not because of her abilities. This is why agencies who are forced into hiring quotas and promotional quotas (see strategic plan) will always end up suffering in the end; which means the community and tax payers will suffer. It's a vicious cycle that usually results in law suits, terminations, and embarrassment to the Department and the city. See Rampart scandal. You know Mary, I'm sure that female Sgt who claimed to have been harrassed in the 80's and early 90's had some valid allegations. But it is a different era and the problem now is not the officers but the administation. You see, the admin. has decided to comproise the FTO program in order to get unqualified recruits through training (both men and women officers). This has unfortunately created an enviornment of laziness and cowardess amongst some newer officers that would have never been allowed in earlier times in any Dept, especially RPD. Maybeone one of these days, we can meet for lunch over a plate of macarroni and cheese and fruit punch and discuss all of the scandal and lies that are perpetrated by the RPD management, not the officers...

Your's truly

"Starsky"

Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary, with regards to the SWAT team, I'm surprised that you don't know about a certain female Sgt who was assigned to the SWAT team as a supervisor 1 year ago.

With all of your knowledge about RPD, you certainly would know that after being given the assignment, she faked an injury to get out of doing the required physical agility test and firearms course(mandated for all SGT's and officers assigned to SWAT). She was then allowed an unprecedented amount of time to retake the tests. When she healed from her "injury" and was given the date for the tests, she no-showed baby!!!Gotta Love It!!

Blame that incompetent "police woman" for there not being any SWAT ladies at that stupid recruitment booth you were talkin about.

Mary, you really need to catch up on your RPD info before you start blastin the RPD and its officers with all of your hippy rhetoric. I'd like to think that Charles 211 is still providing you with valid info but maybe he's been too busy separating the money he won in that funny law suit with the money he took from robbing banks. By the way, have we gathered any info on that? If the Dept. will not give you any, maybe you should make a third party complaint to the CPRC so they can initiate and review the investigation. The complaint can consist of why an officer who allegedly attempted to rob a bank was never placed on administrative leave, or reassigned. Maybe you should go interview the bank clerk and get some info from her.

And Mary, be proud of your early years when you participated in braw burnings. It has totally changed the fabric of our nation and has really impacted the way people party in Lake Havasu!!!

Audi 5000 G

Starsky

Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with you Mary. Promote Officer D. Foy. Wait, you don't like her do you? Can't have it both ways Mary.

Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:55:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

Jaysus Mary, you've got one from off planet and one who's trapped in the 60's with his braw (sic) burning and thinking that 'hippie' is an insult. No wonder they're so totally lost and confused.

Sunday, November 27, 2005 2:40:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Mr. "Starsky":

Are you the 70s version, or the 2005 version? Hmmm...macaroni and fruit punch, definitely 70s.

First of all, I am not really impressed with this department's upper management. More show than substance, which will not bode well for this department in the years ahead. I just do not believe the management constitutes the entire problem, but it is ultimately responsible for all the problems remaining in the department, because the department is its responsibility.

I also believe that when any one man or women advances through the ranks quickly as Ms Brennan has, well then you are going to have more of a possibility of trouble occuring. The reason why, should be more obvious to you than it is to me. It's happened with men too. But their failures are never pointed out by the troops.

That's why I don't support fast-tract promotions, like one individual moving from officer to lieuteant in less than five years. Common sense would dictate that this is a bad practice.

In addition, female officers are also penalized from this practice(not to mention the public), because they suffer the treatment of being labled as being inferior by men when one of them fails. I just believe that there should not be glass ceilings preventing qualified women from being promoted, period when they are qualified to be promoted.

I wondered what happened with once-Lt. Brennan and when I asked about it not long ago after noticing she was not in the department's heirarchal chart with the other lieutenants. I received no answers to that question. Now, I have heard your version of why she was replaced by another lieutenant last winter. Is it true? I guess we shall see. The best clue, would be written documentation. But of course, we know that the department and its city attorney will never allow anyone to see any. PC 832.7, they call it. And they'll toss in the two others, even though they have little or nothing to deal with records' confidentiality, just to sound good.

I will definitely check your information out because if an officer does misconduct, race and gender really aren't as important to me as they seem to be to you. Askl them questions, and they just choose not to answer them. Why? To protect themselves and you, from public inquiry and scrutiny on what is going on, especially when misconduct occurs. If they have to tell something to the public at all that is unpleasant, they'll come up with a different story, rather than be upfront about the facts. We've seen that too on at least one occasion. But that involved a White male officer, so no problem there obviously with the troops. The opposite in fact, in his case.


One question, I do have. Where are all these falsified reports(and falsifying reports as we know is a felony offense)? And if officers were as you say, forced to falsify reports, then why didn't they go enmasse to their union's leadership and complain? Or file grievances? This behavior would be grounds for civil litigation, don't you think? Certainly as worthy of as much attention if not more, as the operation of the CPRC has been.

Of course, then that leadership would have to decide who its allegience is to: you, the troops or the management. However, it's an election year for it, which gives you a window of opportunity that could help you come out ahead.

I have to admit it is nice after all these years, to suddenly hear all this concern about a mentally ill Black man who's a victim of excessive force. Hmm, maybe the diversity training is working, after all. A few years ago, this man wouldn't have even been human. Now, he is one, so the consent decree hasn't been a waste of funding after all. Thanks for expressing that concern in this man's welfare.

I do not know Officer Sutton, but attempts to check out any information on his alleged bank robbery yielded very litte information as we both knew it would. Again, PC 832.7. I sure didn't write that law.

As for the SWAT sergeant, sorry, must have blinked my eyes and missed that one. Why would someone bail on a plum assignment like this one?

As for promoting Officer Foy, I don't see it happening. In her case, that's not a bad thing. See, what you don't understand is that it's not about promoting women because they are women, it's about giving them equal opportunities as their male counterparts have enjoyed for years. But many male officers see it as an all, or nothing situation, whereas they allow individual differences for male officers.

Promoting good female officers IS having it both ways. But in a department where male officers are "good" and female officers are "bad", I realize it might be difficult to understand that the two "ways" you provided, might actually be mutually exclusive and not dependent on one another.

And um, Starsky, a lot of the settlements and terminations of officers have involved misconduct including excessive force have involved White male officers too. In fact most of it. That's a large part of that destructive cycle you are talking about. Do you agree that their participation in that cycle is as destructive as other officers who are not White and/or male?

ciao and say hi to Hutch and Kojak for me,

Sunday, November 27, 2005 1:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Marry, a bad cop is a bad cop is a bad cop. The problem with you is that you always focus on the bad things white cops do or "alleged" bad things that white cops do. You've made it racial with all of your editorials in that comic book you call the Black Voice News.
I can't believe that you are letting some penal code section get in the way of you finding out why Charles 211 tried to rob a bank and why is he still working???You sure seemed to get a lot of info when it came to his lawsuit claiming racism. You sure seemed to sidestep the question that Starsky had about why you do not go to the CPRC and make a complaint. You're all over Ryan Wilson's shooting!!!And even though you have the right to your opinion, that's is exactly what it is-your opinion...And if your going to spout off about women not being treated fairly, show me some proof!And I hope you have more than some female Sgt from the early 1990's who overheard sexist jokes. Your the one who's made it a racial and gender issue.
As for officers going to the union or complaining to the admin, it usually does not work and that's probably why it did not happen (can't say for sure but just a guess). And if you have a certain woman in mind for promotion or special assigment let's hear it!Soemone else wrote about women getting hurt more and using more work-comp benefits; it is true even though I would agree with you that maternity leave should not be included in that generalization...Anyways, lets all hold hands and sing Lennon songs!!!

Your's truly

The "Six Million Dollar Man"

Oh, I'm sorry, that's Roger Sutton's nickname!!

Just call me Lighter Shade of Brown

Sunday, November 27, 2005 8:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Marry, a bad cop is a bad cop is a bad cop. The problem with you is that you always focus on the bad things white cops do or "alleged" bad things that white cops do. You've made it racial with all of your editorials in that comic book you call the Black Voice News.
I can't believe that you are letting some penal code section get in the way of you finding out why Charles 211 tried to rob a bank and why is he still working???You sure seemed to get a lot of info when it came to his lawsuit claiming racism. You sure seemed to sidestep the question that Starsky had about why you do not go to the CPRC and make a complaint. You're all over Ryan Wilson's shooting!!!And even though you have the right to your opinion, that's is exactly what it is-your opinion...And if your going to spout off about women not being treated fairly, show me some proof!And I hope you have more than some female Sgt from the early 1990's who overheard sexist jokes. Your the one who's made it a racial and gender issue.
As for officers going to the union or complaining to the admin, it usually does not work and that's probably why it did not happen (can't say for sure but just a guess). And if you have a certain woman in mind for promotion or special assigment let's hear it!Soemone else wrote about women getting hurt more and using more work-comp benefits; it is true even though I would agree with you that maternity leave should not be included in that generalization...Anyways, lets all hold hands and sing Lennon songs!!!

Your's truly

The "Six Million Dollar Man"

Oh, I'm sorry, that's Roger Sutton's nickname!!

Just call me Lighter Shade of Brown

Sunday, November 27, 2005 8:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Marry, a bad cop is a bad cop is a bad cop. The problem with you is that you always focus on the bad things white cops do or "alleged" bad things that white cops do. You've made it racial with all of your editorials in that comic book you call the Black Voice News.
I can't believe that you are letting some penal code section get in the way of you finding out why Charles 211 tried to rob a bank and why is he still working???You sure seemed to get a lot of info when it came to his lawsuit claiming racism. You sure seemed to sidestep the question that Starsky had about why you do not go to the CPRC and make a complaint. You're all over Ryan Wilson's shooting!!!And even though you have the right to your opinion, that's is exactly what it is-your opinion...And if your going to spout off about women not being treated fairly, show me some proof!And I hope you have more than some female Sgt from the early 1990's who overheard sexist jokes. Your the one who's made it a racial and gender issue.
As for officers going to the union or complaining to the admin, it usually does not work and that's probably why it did not happen (can't say for sure but just a guess). And if you have a certain woman in mind for promotion or special assigment let's hear it!Soemone else wrote about women getting hurt more and using more work-comp benefits; it is true even though I would agree with you that maternity leave should not be included in that generalization...Anyways, lets all hold hands and sing Lennon songs!!!

Your's truly

The "Six Million Dollar Man"

Oh, I'm sorry, that's Roger Sutton's nickname!!

Just call me Lighter Shade of Brown

Sunday, November 27, 2005 8:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Sandalou, my peoples prey on the poor if the poor are the ones sticking guns in the faces of Hispanic ice cream vendors and stealing their $20 dollars or selling rock cocaine on street corners while children ride their bikes to the park!!!A family of four on the East Side should be able to go to dinner at Church's Chicken without having children witness parolees and pimps and prostitutes committing crimes on the adjacent street corner.
And I know you know Church's Chicken Sanalou...Where should the police go Sandalou???Should they go into rich neighborhoods? Should patrol officers spend more of their time concentrating on securities fraud and tax evasion or you think stopping hoods (oh, I'm sorry-poor people) from shooting up houses and killing or injuring innocent children is a better proposition? Take the pick out of your dookie braids Sandalou and smell the Popeye's!

PS..Lookin for an orange six-fo impala with a white stripe across the top!!!

Starsky

Sunday, November 27, 2005 8:58:00 PM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Mr. Closeted Cop:

Thank you for your comments.

Hmmm... I thought his reference to complaining to the CPRC was a joke. After all the hard work the RPOA has done to try and eliminate it, to have a member suggest that a complaint be filed. Wow. Irony, indeed. And treason of sorts, I would think?

Why not go talk to the bank clerk, and convince her to file a complaint? She's the alleged victim. She can provide a statement of what happened. She is the logical complainant, but her identity alas, still remains top secret. How convenient for you, because if she exists, it's not her you are concerned about, is it? She exists, in reality or otherwise, to make a point.

With Wilson's shooting, there is about 750 pages of documentation which is much more than there is or has been released publicly in this case. And there is a finding against his shooting released by the CPRC. With Sutton, there is gossip.

Besides, if I filed a complaint, I certainly can't say that "Serpico" aka "Starsky" told me what happened, so what would I base it on? Would this officer be around if he was needed to provide your account of the situation? No, S/S would still be hiding behind his aliases, just like he is here. If anyone of you would come forward and publicly state the allegations against Sutton as you have done here and take responsibility for them in any investigation done by the CPRC or Internal Affairs, it would be different, but I'm not holding my breath on that. We all know officers protect their own, even if they apparently gossip more frequently about the alleged sins of those who are not White men.

The CPRC would take a complaint from me and hand it off to Internal Affairs, which if this incident involving Sutton really occurred and was covered up as has been said, is part of that coverup, don't you think? So those who engage in the coverup, get to investigate it? If this wasn't the RPD, I would say it sounds like a bad movie. Unfortunately it is not. It really is the RPD.

Investigation then gets closed. Why not? If any division in the department was involved in what you alleged, then it would once again be a self-investigation. It's all good for the department in the end though, if not the public.

PC 832.7 is tough to beat. There is no legal offense around it, in this case. Like I said, I did not write that law, nor did I lobby for its passage. It protects your interests 99% of the time. The rest of the time, well I guess you just have to live with that.

Don't blame me for the CPRC handing it off to IA rather than doing its own investigation. I didn't want the washed down Long Beach version of civilian review. I wanted the original Berkeley edition which was approved by the PPRC and vetoed by the city council. And the CPRC as you know is underfunded and lacks the resources to investigate complaints, which is how you usually prefer it...except maybe in this case.

Have a nice day,

p.s. If any of you are willing to identify yourselves and provide evidence of Sutton's alleged bank robbery, you know how to contact me.



p.s. Next time you push "publish", you only have to do it once. :-)

Monday, November 28, 2005 9:59:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Hi Starsky/Serpico,

If you could put aside your tendacy to stereotype people through your 70s-tainted glasses for a few seconds, I have some questions for you to answer, if you are up to it. If you truly care about this poor gentleman, I'm sure you will find it somewhere in you to answer them.

1) what is the name of the gentleman who was hit by the less than lethal munitions. It occurred in Canyoncrest around Nov. 17, 2004, but no name was mentioned.

2) What was he charged with? Resisting arrest? Battery of an Officer? Attempted murder of an officer? Or a combination of any of the above?

3) What was the police report number for this gentleman?

4)What was the demotion date for Brennan? It appears to have been sometime in March 2005.

I am aware that the lastest round of Closeted Cop to show up here has covered this for you, but I would like to know from you, why these officers when forced as you alleged to lie on police reports and exaggerate the "crimes" committed by this gentleman why they or you did not go to the RPOA for legal assistance. Is there not something in your labor contracts that prohibits coersion to commit acts that violate both department policy and the state penal code? If you were always truthful in your report writing and someone told you suddenly to lie, why not go to your union leadership as a group?

Maybe it is too busy pursuing other interests. Then get a lawyer as a group. If lying on a report is as repugnant to you and them as it should be, why not fight against it?

These are very serious allegations and there may be a man facing criminal charges as a result, based on false information by your agency. Not that anyone cared because all this must have occurred months ago...until it was time to grind an ax. Truly a sad state of affairs, if what you claim is true.

I mean, if the case went to a preliminary hearing, what then? Perjury?

It's too bad you obviously have the power and knowlege to set this situation right, and you hide behind an alias instead. Too bad, indeed.



Have a good day,

Monday, November 28, 2005 10:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey boys, Just keep in mind there could be many other "good dudes" brought into these incidents you are laying out here in public. I do agree Charles 211 and LT....errrr Sgt Julia Roberts....errrrrrr Bitter Beer Face...need to be dealt with, but this is not the forum to be throwing our own under the bus...no matter who they are. Because there are others involved who could be adversly affected.

Just something to think about

DJ

Monday, November 28, 2005 12:19:00 PM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear DJ,

Hmmm...that was unexpected!

Officers come here to criticize me for not taking incidents involving officers who are not White men seriously. I look into some of the incidents they list and then out comes the self-designated Keeper of the Blue Wall to say that the "good guys"(who probably aren't Black, aren't female) might be adversely effected. Or to slap Mr. Starsky's hand so to speak.

It would be funny. Instead it's sad.

News flash: If your "good guys" as you call them were forced to lie on police reports by management as you alleged, they have been adversely affected already and continue to be so because surely they must know how wrong it was to do this and must feel that. Your silence to "protect" them is not helping them.

What your union should have done was advocate on behalf of these officers if they were coerced by management. It apparently did not do this for unknown reasons. So if this alleged incident happened involving Brennan, then months later, you still have a serious problem as does this department.

This is hardly surprising. By all means, deal with your problems internally. We all know how what happens there. Nothing. Oh yeah...there is gossip around the water cooler in discussions dealing with race and gender, but besides that? Nothing.

small consolation for the mentally ill man if he's still sitting in a jail cell, btw. Or for that alleged bank robbery victim, for that matter if that actually happened. Small consolation for those "good guys" if they are truly victims. Or any others who happen to be out there.

have a nice day,

Monday, November 28, 2005 1:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You aint diggin what Starsky's sayin Mary...No one cares if you make a complaint or investigate some cop (black or white) who tries to rob a bank, or some female LT who ordered cops to shoot the guy a bunch of times with less lethal...the point is that you seem to pick and choose your "controversial incidents" yet you try to come across as some impartial activist and that's bull shit! As for all the closeted cop stuff, I dont remember seeing your real name on any part of this site..You must have spent all night awake in deep sweats when you realized you'd been uncovered Ms."Five before midnight." Interview the bank teller? Please!I think Starsky was just makin a point but you obviously did not get it...How bout you leave good cops like Ryan Wilson alone and outstanding detectives like the ones who investigated that shooting. Those detectives have solved numerous homocides over the years and have taken a lot of bad people off the streets who might have already or could have victimized a member of your family or a friend. And if your that gullible to believe some investigation conducted by the CPRC, than I will not participate in any more of these dialogues because those dudes are idiots and have absolutely no credibility!And Mary, settle down..I'd like to tell you more but I cant per 837.88 sub article 9 paragraph 3 sub-section 7 of the penal code(:...Oh ya, and Mary, if for some reason you do need a police investigation, don't call the police...Call the CPRC since they're so bitchen...Gotta go Mary, I'm getting my head shaved in a few...

Later

Grossman

Monday, November 28, 2005 8:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RPD does a good job. They took the crack right out of my ass and put me in jail. Now, I'm an upstanding citizen. Mary...leave those RPD guys alone. Come see me on the corner of Douglas/University and i'll take care of your underlying problem. You need some dick.....

Sincerly
Huggy Bear


Ps. You all know thats the best name yet.

Tuesday, November 29, 2005 11:09:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Grossmen:

I am to assume I will not be receiving the name of this bank clerk any time soon?

Okay, then. The Sutton allegation reminds idle gossip by an embittered White officer against a Black officer.

I understood Starsky/Serpico's point, but what he simply proved that he was doing the same thing he accused me of doing...only he obviously dislikes minority officers and female officers. I did learn that the Blue Wall is a tad bit thicker around White male officers, than others. Very interesting.

It would have been nice if his "sympathy" towards the alleged female bank clerk and the mentally ill Black man(should know better there!) were sincere. I guess my point that both of them were simply a means to an end was an accurate one.

..You must have spent all night awake in deep sweats when you realized you'd been uncovered Ms."Five before midnight."

I'm sure you'd like to think so because you obviously consider fear of others towards yourselves a turnon of sorts. But, since you figured out, obviously my identity was on this site somewhere.

Was I surprised to see an influx of individuals identifying themselves as RPD officers here? Yes.

I think Starsky was just makin a point but you obviously did not get it...How bout you leave good cops like Ryan Wilson alone and outstanding detectives like the ones who investigated that shooting. Those detectives have solved numerous homocides over the years and have taken a lot of bad people off the streets who might have already or could have victimized a member of your family or a friend.

Leave White cops alone. Pick on minority and female officers. Gotcha.

I think you mean homicides. I believe I said the detectives were above the mean in their abilities and dedication, and they obviously have been very successful at their work. But what makes them excellent homicide detectives might work against them when forced to investigate one of their own. Perhaps, LE agencies should hand off their OIS's to other LE agencies rather than self-investigate.

Have you read the entire investigative report? Good...then you can come back and discuss it....

And if your that gullible to believe some investigation conducted by the CPRC, than I will not participate in any more of these dialogues because those dudes are idiots and have absolutely no credibility!

That's fine. Feel free to leave in a huff. Maybe after a short time-out, you'll feel like coming back.

have a nice day,

Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:11:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

DJ,

As long as you let yourselves be dirtied by defending bad cops, whether it be by the actual filing of false reports as the psuedo cop claims or by just remaining silent, you aren't good cops. What you are is accessories to a crime. Frankly, why you would want to be associated in any way with the likes of Serpico and his ilk is beyond me.

Serpico, you are so far out of range that I hope they never promote you. You couldn't find reality if some one offered it to you in suppository form.

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sandalou, you should stop worrying about police reform and get back to makin syrup like Yo aunt jamima...or is that "auntie jamima?"

Lata Boyz

Your's Truly

Barney Miller

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:48:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

Serpico, you make Boss Hogg's sidekick look like a rocket scientist.

Have you found a White Sale for your Holiday party clothes yet? I saw a twin size Bozo the other day that would be perfect for you.

Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow. Y'know, in my life, I have had to struggle to give cops the benefit of the doubt but these guys here remove all doubt. Next time I hear the term "pig" come out of someone's face, I won't offer much of an argument. And I'm going to link my blog to here too, I think I know a few Californians who'd be interested in this fascinating little display. Since harrassment ain't really my thing, I'll post anonymously.

That whole "middle class" thing was just too fucking precious.

Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow, that last message was really thought provoking...ooohhh, ur gonna let Californians see this!!Im sorry, we'll be nicer...If you don't like it, don't read it!and do people still call cops pigs anyways?I actually like the term. Makes me giddy!I think Mary's even startin to like it-Aint you Mary?!

Cordially yours

The Japanese Police Officer's Association

Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:06:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

What a pathetic little man you are.

Friday, December 02, 2005 12:20:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"and do people still call cops pigs anyways?I actually like the term. Makes me giddy!"

Well, keep up the good work pal. Looks good on you and your department.

Friday, December 02, 2005 12:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay "Pal", who the fuck made you the goddam monitor of how cops should act...What do you do for a living? Or are you one of those people who doesn't have a job but criticizes the people who do work for a living. And what do you mean it "looks good on me and my department." Nobody knows ME or what dept I work for. Maybe I'm one of Mary's crack cocaine smokin boyfriends who's tryin to make cops look bad. Hey, I know. Why don't you apply to be a cop, go through the 6 month academy and the 6 months of field training after the academy and take to the streets buddy boy. Then you can change things and make us cops look better to everyone-especially Californians.

And to you Sandalou, good one!

Out!

Starsky

Friday, December 02, 2005 9:47:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Closeted Officer:

No, I do not like the term, but I can understand why people would be less reluctant to challenge that word after reading some of the comments here. After all, some of what officers have posted here does not exactly live up to how many people envision LE officers' as behaving. Kind of like being blasted by frigid air, on a hot day. They may not know your identities because you hide them, but they do know the agency that you are representing and speaking for.

But if it all makes you giddy, then all is well in your world anyway. Be happy.

It's really sad when you've forgotten the name of your own labor union especially when you are serving on its board. What would the voting members think? Particularly at election time.

There is no Japanese Police Officers' Association, let alone a Japanese Police Officer's Assn, which by itself is an oxymoron.

And if there were, its members are most likely too mature and professional to post a comment of that caliber here about a police department half a world away that has had an international reputation for having serious problems for quite some time now, since the shooting of Tyisha Miller in 1998.

I believe officers in various LE agencies in Japan who are being conglamorated into one entity due to their racial backgrounds, would find your impersonation of them here very offensive. It is quite clear that you hate me, but to hide behind hard-working police officers(who probably aren't surfing the net in their squad cars), is kind of unfair to them.

Friday, December 02, 2005 10:06:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Starsky/Serpico:

Okay "Pal", who the fuck made you the goddam monitor of how cops should act...What do you do for a living? Or are you one of those people who doesn't have a job but criticizes the people who do work for a living. And what do you mean it "looks good on me and my department." Nobody knows ME or what dept I work for

Starsky/Serpico, did you lateral out of the RPD since your last post? If so, then no, I don't know what agency you are working for at the moment. But I know which agency you were working for when you wrote your comments on the RPD's management and how it forces officers to do bad things. It was a situation you felt too strongly about, to be coming from a detatched outsider. You don't like your department's management, that's very clear, maybe for good reason, maybe not. Who else outside the RPD would care that much and feel so strongly about it?

I'm puzzled then about the "truths" you told me about the Black male officer who robs banks, the female lieutenant-turned-sergeant who forces officers to write false reports to cover up her own misdeeds and the AWOL female SWAT sergeant. Defense behavior against any criticism of White male officers who commit misconduct. Why bring it up, over and over, and over just to make a point that no one outside the RPD would not give a fig about anyway?

The insulation and isolation which surrounds every department's police culture, being what it is, makes it clear if not exactly who you are, what agency you work for and are speaking for.

Maybe I'm one of Mary's crack cocaine smokin boyfriends who's tryin to make cops look bad.

Huh? I wouldn't think you need any help doing that. You are dong just fine on your own to the detriment of the good officers in the RPD who aren't here(probably handling your calls while you are here). This slander about my boyfriends is almost as interesting as the false story about me being a victim of abuse as a child that was circulated by several disgruntled uniformed officers a while back to other officers and members of the public.

Hey, I know. Why don't you apply to be a cop, go through the 6 month academy and the 6 months of field training after the academy and take to the streets buddy boy. Then you can change things and make us cops look better to everyone-especially Californians.

Hmmm...why does this repeatedly come up in defense of racism, sexism and misconduct(abeit by White male officers, only)? There are LE officers who do not engage in misconduct, do not use racist or sexist slurs. Some unfortunately do, then hide themselves among the ones who don't engage in this behavior. They use the "good" officers to deflect criticism of their own conduct.

But Starsky/Serpico, not all officers behave like you do, yet they do attend all the same training(and probably even more) than you did. Why then are there officers who are hardworking professionals and do good work yet do not spend time hiding behind a false identity ranting on a blog? Because it's not the training, the experience, the work that fosters this type of behavior, it is something within your self which is separate from your profession that is governing your decision to behave as you have here(and in other settings).


Out!

Hmmm...I guess lunch is off? No worries.

Friday, December 02, 2005 11:05:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay "Pal", who the fuck made you the goddam monitor of how cops should act...What do you do for a living? Or are you one of those people who doesn't have a job but criticizes the people who do work for a living.

Starsky buddy,

I work for the City. And I'm not monitoring cop behaviour, I'm making observations. Your department appears to be a toxic environment AND have a major PR problem. It's just constructive criticism pal, no need to get your panties in a bunch.

Friday, December 02, 2005 2:51:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

Hey people, let's keep the little freak here. As long as he's hanging over his keyboard frothing at the mouth, he's not out abusing people who happen to be taller or browner or female.

Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:09:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear City employee:

I work for the City. And I'm not monitoring cop behaviour, I'm making observations.

I take it then, you're not from risk management?

Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hahahaha. Thank god I'm not in risk management!

Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:04:00 PM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Sandalou,

Mr. Starsky sounds like a very conflicted person. On one hand, he's complaining about problems in the PD, alleging or hinting at serious misconduct among those in management. He even appears upset about it. OTOH, even though neither he nor his colleagues have done anything to remedy these alleged problems themselves, he still challenges anyone's right to "monitor" the department.

He's definitely an old-timer, between 10-15 years in the department, given his disdain for the "laziness" and "cowardness" of newer officers. Given his effusive complaints about the FTO program's evolution(POST training and evaluations revamped by the consent decree), he must have worked as one for a time before moving on. Most of his comments are about one geographic area of the city.

He doesn't appear to like management, again maybe for good reasons, maybe not. Not too fond of female officers either. Probably works in assignments which minimizes his contact with them.

He's got a great job, excellent benefits and retirement, huge fan base, great opportunities in training brought by the stipulated agreement, yet he's still doesn't seem very happy about any of it. A glass empty kind of guy.

Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:30:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

>>>A glass empty kind of guy.

Yeah, that's not all that's empty.

Saturday, December 03, 2005 11:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, Mary's doing profiles now!!!Your so smart!!!And Sandalou, my glass is always full---it's full of the finest whiskey $5 dollars can buy..Sorry, I know you like gin and juice...

Lata

Starsky

P.S. Hey city worker, maybe you should joing the PD or tell us what city dept you work for.

Sunday, December 04, 2005 7:04:00 PM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Starsky,

Thanks for the compliment, but not nearly as smart as you.

btw, there's a new job opening in your department. Why not submit your resume and go for it? Why should it go to an outsider, rather than someone who's spent years working his way up through the department?

Your knowledge of, and experiencing years of working with management, not to mention your passionate opinions about management will put you in much better stead than someone from the outside.

Why just be content to interview the prospective candidates when you can be one?

have a nice day,

Monday, December 05, 2005 9:05:00 AM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

$5 a glass huh? I can see you're a man of vast experience and educated tastes. Use that fancy whiskey to wash down the imported peanuts no doubt.

The only thing he's a candidate for is increased meds or several days in wet pack.

As far as the city worker, I guess he'll ID himself when you do oh cartoon cop. Maybe. You've made it pretty obvious why Riverside is a scary place.

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:20:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear Sandalou:

Maybe he's going out for the asst. Chief position. He's probably at least two ranks below captain, but he's got two characteristics working in his favor. Well, three if you count his passionate opinions about the quality of management in the RPD.

Or maybe he's just looking for a new moniker. For some reason, I see him as a cross between David Arquette, Burt Young with a little Joe Pesci in there.

I'm wondering if this is really a serious recruitment effort to find the most qualified candidate for the job, or if its just a PR measure to pass necessary time, while they groom one of the few viable candidates inhouse for the job.

Looking for an asst. chief(a long-vacant position since the last one retired)on the eve of the end of the stipulated agreement seems a bit odd. Especially since the pool of candidates nation-wide which will both fit the criteria listed AND want to tackle any department post-decree may not really be all that large. Though size doesn't necessarily matter in this case, it appears that they will pick someone inside the agency. Or failing that, Riverside County.

He(and most definitely, it will be a "he")will have his work cut out for him for sure especially if he is an "outsider", but there are probably some who will find the challenge that lies ahead, invigorating too.

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 4:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, the bile that is offered here by these police officers is really disheartening.

Growing up, my father was a very successful state police officer, eventually retiring as a first lieutenant/post commander, and well respected community servant.

One of the things that he always taught myself and my brother seems to have been lost upon the officers posting here - your job is to serve and protect. The machismo that has been expressed here is completely out of line and unbecoming of anyone, much less a public servant (dear lord did someone actually say in seriousness that Midnight needs a dick? And same folks want to be taken seriously about not being sexist or sexually harassing? Argh!)

You men really need to take a step back and look at the picture you present. It isn't pretty. In fact, it's easily one of the worst examples of poor behavior that ends up harming the reputations of police officers at large.

Shameful really.

Cheers and Happy Holidays,

Kim in Portland
via, Alas, a blog...

Friday, December 23, 2005 8:03:00 PM  
Blogger Susan said...

As an outsider to police work - hey, you guys, I'm one of the people who relies on you for protection! - I'm disheartened by what I'm reading here. I'm hoping that the police men and women in my city (Oakland) are, unlike some of the posters here, grownups.

You men really need to take a step back and look at the picture you present. It isn't pretty. In fact, it's easily one of the worst examples of poor behavior that ends up harming the reputations of police officers at large.

I can only agree with Kim.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 1:54:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

>>You men really need to take a step back and look at the picture you present. It isn't pretty. In fact, it's easily one of the worst examples of poor behavior that ends up harming the reputations of police officers at large.

The only trouble being that they don't see anything wrong with the way the act. We are the ones with the problem because we just can't comprehend that they are completely justified in their racist, sexist, homophobic behavior. We just haven't gotten the word that their pale skin and wee 2 ounces of proud flesh make them so superior to everyone else.

Shall I hand you the barf bucket now?

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary and Sanddafloors,

Do not judge what you do not understand..... If either of you really believed in what you preached, then you woudn't be hiding behind a web-site or small time minority paper. Instead, either of you, (or your 2 followers), might actually run for Chief of Police or Mayor or other public official that could make a differance.

There is no use fighting Riverside PD when they are doing more good for the public than either of you are. If they were not, then the public would call either of your phone numbers for assistance instead of 911.

There will always be a debate over Law Enforcement Officials and criminals. Pick a side and stick to it. You can't ride the fence on that debate. Either you are a supporter of YOUR community's chosen guardians or you are part of the law-breaking citizens that rape and pillage our communities.

RPD is no differant than any other Law Enfocement Agency. It has encountered just as many problems or set-backs as any other agency. The problem with RPD is not the behavior or service of its Officer, but rather the negativety that CITIZENS like yourselves place upon them. You expect the world of peace and happiness handed to you because you said so, but what have you done to assist in accomplishing that.

Try salvaging your pathetic exsistance by being less critical of YOUR local Police department and more critical of yourselves. What puprose do you serve? Who have you helped? Where is that last piece of bean pie?

Sincerley yours,

Gramps.

P.S. Free Barbeque for everyone!!!!

Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:08:00 AM  
Blogger Five Before Midnight said...

Dear "Gramps":

(aka "Starksy")


Do not judge what you do not understand..... If either of you really believed in what you preached, then you woudn't be hiding behind a web-site or small time minority paper. Instead, either of you, (or your 2 followers), might actually run for Chief of Police or Mayor or other public official that could make a differance.

Who's hiding? Your the one using aliases here. I've not seen your real name posted on this site yet, just a series of aliases from old 70s cop shows and children's books. Also, if you're going to resort to "blackface", you need to improve your delivery. I guess you aren't as well versed in it as some of your brethren. Maybe they can give you pointers.

There is no use fighting Riverside PD when they are doing more good for the public than either of you are. If they were not, then the public would call either of your phone numbers for assistance instead of 911.

Who's fighting whom? No one has fought harder against any positive reforms in the RPD than the RPOA leadership, which you should know.

That's because most of the police officers are professionals. Some of them, you included, are disgruntled people who are upset that the "cowboy" way of doing business is not standard practice anymore. And the problem is, when the disgruntled "old guard" officers try to cling onto the coattails of those who are trying to prove that they are different from the "old" RPD and are doing the best they can. The officers who didn't run away from a department undergoing state-mandated reforms but came to it to get jobs.

I'm also aware that some of you have March 6, 2006 marked on your calendar as the day things are supposed to go back to the way they were. Hopefully enough officers will decide that the past(which wasn't even theirs) is the past and it's time to move forward towards progress, for the betterment of all the city's residents. They will the necessary force to turn the tide against any proposed revisiting of past history.

There will always be a debate over Law Enforcement Officials and criminals. Pick a side and stick to it. You can't ride the fence on that debate. Either you are a supporter of YOUR community's chosen guardians or you are part of the law-breaking citizens that rape and pillage our communities.

Ah yes, if not the "if you're not for us, you're against us" defense, then there's the "if you're not with us, you're with the criminal defense". Police Culture 101.

You've already done this under various IDs here already as have the one or two followers you have who also have showed up here.

We've already heard the adage, if you don't support us, we won't respond to your 911 calls. I know I have. That's part of the old mentality that still around, unfortunately. Time has a way of changing those things, just like water washes away rock and forms canyons.

RPD is no differant than any other Law Enfocement Agency. It has encountered just as many problems or set-backs as any other agency. The problem with RPD is not the behavior or service of its Officer, but rather the negativety that CITIZENS like yourselves place upon them. You expect the world of peace and happiness handed to you because you said so, but what have you done to assist in accomplishing that.

Well, Starsky, I mean Gramps, it takes more than a few "setbacks" to cost the city over $22 million in implementing court-mandated reforms over a five-year period, wouldn't you agree? After all, name another agency in California that's under a state-ordered stipulated agreement. The answer is, none. In fact, only one other agency, the LAPD, is under a federal consent decree. So the RPD did not have "set backs", but serious long-standing problems, enough so that two outside agencies saw fit to launch investigations of its practices.

Also, this "negativity" enabled you and your brethren in blue to recieve much more training, better equipment and higher salaries than most other LE agencies in the state, despite your kicking and screaming and head shaving most of the way. You should be thankful that you had this opportunity to have access to these great things. Other LE officers in less privilaged agencies would love to be in your shoes!

Try salvaging your pathetic exsistance by being less critical of YOUR local Police department and more critical of yourselves. What puprose do you serve? Who have you helped? Where is that last piece of bean pie?

LOL. You are a funny guy. And the last piece of bean pie is with the macaroni and fruit punch in front of you.

The department will become what it is more than capable of becoming some day, abeit some time after those like yourself have begun collecting your retirement checks. Sometimes what's required is the passage of one generation to the next.


have a nice day,

p.s. btw, how's your first amendment defense going?

Monday, January 23, 2006 4:35:00 PM  
Blogger Sandalou said...

Don't want to be the Chief of Police in that cesspool of yours Cartoon. And I definitely think that that Mary is doing a lot more to help the people of that community by keeping them from being shot by you commando cowboys than you are doing by get your manly man jollies by terrorizing those same people.

But really, you are the problem. You're not a good cop, you're not even really a cop. You're just a racist, misogynistic, homophobic bully who found a costume that lets him get away with that bullying for just a little longer.

Too bad that you weren't born in the deep South %) years sooner. Yould have fit right in. I still want to know what it is that you're so damn afraid of.

Sandalou

Friday, February 03, 2006 4:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

test

Friday, February 17, 2006 11:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

test 2

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 4:57:00 PM  

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